Losing My Religion
'Horizon' on dogs

Islamic stigmata

Paranormalia has been a bit quiet recently, while I'm trying to finish two books, my own and a client's. How these things do gobble up time. Matt Colborn, who has posted a couple of times, doubtless would have done so again but he too is in the middle of a book - on consciousness, as I'm sure he'll tell us about here before long. So: books three, blogs zero.

Ali_in In the meantime I've been interested in the baby in Dagestan who is apparently running a sort of Koranic slide show on his skin. Ali Yakubov is said to have exhibited the word 'Allah' in Arabic on his chin at a few weeks of age, and subsequently entire Koranic verses have been appearing on various parts of his body, before fading and being replaced with new ones. Initially the parents did not talk about it, but then the phrase, "Show these signs to people" came into view, and now their household is being inundated with pilgrims from all over the region.  Performances are twice weekly, on Mondays and Thursday nights.

There are a few other details. The child is said to have been diagnosed with coronary heart disease and cerebral spastic infantile paralysis at birth, but he recovered suddenly when the scripts started appearing on his body. When this happens, his mother says, he cries, his temperature rises and he seems to be very uncomfortable. The parents themselves are not particularly religious, but the local muftis are all aflutter and maintain the event is a "warning to all Muslims of Russia and Dagestan ... that they should turn to the wisdom of the religion of Allah, repent of their sins, and abandon their discord, conflicts, and the fratricidal confrontation that today shakes the blessed land of Dagestan and the entire Caucasus."

A good sentiment in such a troubled region - but is any of it true? I'm rather allergic to religious 'miracles' - my first reaction was an inward groan and the thought, here we go again (It's all those horrible 'weeping' statues - it just all seems so tacky and sentimental). I'd want to know a great deal more before deciding whether or not it's a hoax.

That said, there are plenty of precedents of this sort of thing in Christianity. Stigmata have been documented frequently enough to be considered a genuine psycho-physiological phenomenon. According to Irreducible Mind hundreds of cases have been reported from the 13th century, in the case of St Francis of Assisi, to the present day, although perhaps only around 50 with adequate testimony. It's usually linked to intense religiosity in young Catholic women suffering from 'hysteria' (whatever that is) - the marks correspond to Christ's wounds on the cross.

Apart from this there are medical cases of patients occasionally exhibiting bruises, blisters and other skin markings that come and go, and correspond to traumas earlier in life, like being beaten, or traumas that are merely imagined but do not actually happen. Ian Stevenson in his book on birthmarks describes the case of an Indian man who, while ill with typhoid fever, 'thought that he had died and that, as he was struggling to return to life, persons in the "other realm" had subdued him by cutting off his legs at the knees. When he recovered, "he was found to have some unusual horizontal scars in the skin across the front of both knees," and the "scars" persisted so that years later [he] was able to photograph them'. (Irr. Mind p. 158)

Emily Williams Kelly, who wrote the foregoing in the chapter on 'psychophysiological influence' in Irreducible Mind, is interested in how ideas in one's head can produce effects in the body. Neuroscience is closing in, as in many things, on the areas of the brain that are involved in triggering specific symptoms of this kind, but as she points out, that doesn't tackle the essential mystery, which is how or where the whole process begins. How do ideas and emotions convert so very directly into physical symptoms?

At least in the cases of female 'hysterics' there is a clear link between the two. But in the case of little Ali, assuming it's genuine - and it strikes me it would be a rather complex hoax, although not necessarily pointless - we are talking about an infant who can have not the smallest notion of anything that is going on - at least on any conventional level. The intelligence behind the phenomenon is literate and knows the scriptures. 

That means we can't address the problem in the same way as we can Christian stigmata; we would have to posit the involvement of some other mind - either living (the parents, a religious relative, a local priest), which would involve mental influence at a distance; or discarnate, which would indicate survival of death; or, as a related alternative that Stevenson might have suggested, the mind of the personality, perhaps a devout religious scholar, who has decided in his next life to bring some of that knowledge with him, and perhaps, as the muftis say, do something to try to counteract the appalling violence in the Caucasus.

Whichever of these we go with involves a jump from something odd, but potentially explicable if neursocience one day cracks the secret of consciousness, to something that is unambiguously paranormal. That's a good argument for not taking it seriously until some sleuth tells us it's the real deal. But if it is real it will be an extraordinary addition to the literature on stigmata.

Comments

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Good to see you posting again!

http://hivespictures.com/images/hives_pictures9.jpg

http://hivespictures.com/images/hives_pictures10.jpg

http://heathives.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dermatographic_urticaria.jpg

I'm not really acquainted with the case at all but urticaria seems quite plausible to me. I am inclined to think that dermal peculiarities like this can occur abnormally (blistering or skin flushing with hypnosis) but of this specificity and complexity? Particularly in an infant who surely cannot know Arabic and Quranic scripture.

There is interesting video around of Eleonore Zugun manifesting more simple wheals.

It must be a miracle. How could anyone argue with a photograph and uncorroborated claims that a child’s devastating ailments vanished thanks to the appearance of writing on its skin? (Move over, Christian God, there’s a new deity on the block)

No doubt the pilgrims making the journey to see this miracle will not be so lacking in faith that they will want evidence of its veracity (you know, medical records confirming the existence and then sudden disappearance of the child’s alleged coronary heart disease and cerebral spastic infantile paralysis - that kind of thing). So there is no reason for them to be anything less than generous when it comes to making financial donations.

The story is almost as miraculous as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cyJ8nqU7ds

Astonishing. How could anyone fail to be convinced?

...or it could be a hoax - there are many chemicals one could paint on such new skin that would create the very kind of discoloration that we see in the picture above...those definitely look like brush strokes to me.

Hi Patriot,

Do you have examples of this? Maybe a link on google.

My first thought was....dermatographism.
The fly in the ointment is: in the context of this region and religion, if one were found to be perpetuating a religious hoax, the cost could conceivably be great.
Nonetheless a story worth following.

Too bad someone can't compare the parent's handwriting style to the writing style on the child's arm.

I didn't know Allah wrote in cursive script.

Certainly the perfect vehicle for this kind of thing would be a baby who could not offer verbal details the events that led to each revelation.

The devil trying to fool us

Definetly the work of evil trying to pervert the truth. But they seriously need to stop messing with us or we'll eventually grow tired of putting up with them and wipe them off the face of the earth!

I don't believe it for a second. People's ingenuity is only second to their desire to believe what they really want to believe.

Only the unenlightened Middle East would think for a second this could be real.

By the beard of the prophet!

I am an open minded skeptic. That said, the article quotes "Show these signs to people" I would like to know what it says. And yes, I think it is most likely a hoax, unless they can tell us something that will happen in the future, and then it comes true. If it can be translated then, bring it on.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/xxKillTheLights/ariana_page_russell7.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/xxKillTheLights/ariana_page_russell8.jpg

These posted pictures are the work of artist Ariana Page. She has a skin condition called dermatographia (the immune system exhibits hypersensitivity, via skin, that releases excessive amounts of histamine, causing capillaries to dilate and welts to appear (lasting about thirty minutes) when the skin’s surface is lightly scratched).

I submit this for your consideration.

If God really wanted a "sign" to be seen by people, why wouldn't He just write it in the sky for everyone to see?

Soon the baby's arms will be removed and enshrined by the mullahs for safekeeping. Unless of course the baby is female; then the body will be saved from the neck down. Allah doesn't permit females to read, so this must be of satan.

Even now in the modern age, people stil cling to myths that are thousands of years old, do we still believe in santa claus? the tooth fairy? as children we did, but man, like children, must grow up and move past such ideals. has any one seen allah? god? buddah? did you see them in the market this morning squeezing the lettuce? the parents have apparently writen the script on this child, nothing more. more proof of a diety that's not home. pathetic, the only god that's real is science, if man followed that, maybe we can stop all this fighting and bloodshed over who's god is the right one. till then, we are blindfolded children who refuse to admit that there are things beyond our knowing, does this mean there's a god? I'm willing to say what most are afraid to....I don't know. till there's definitive proof, I'll be the eternal skeptic.

If it promtes peace it is good, if it promotes death it is bad.

So once religion goes, does all war stop, Gary?

The arm is a fake.

maybe it will, maybe it won't seems we can't get along with things that seperate and divide us with deeply ingrained mindsets. stopping wars by ending religion wasn't my point, my point is that rather in believing in some mysterious being in the heavens that created everything, I'd much rather believe in myself. we don't need an imaginary thing to be good to each other, do we? every religion promotes peace, and in turn is used for gain and selfish purposes. man is both god and devil, without man where would they be? as far as this article goes, I highly doubt that any supernatural influence had anything to do with the baby's limbs being written on, are there supernatural occurances? yes. do we have spirits? maybe, but we don't know for sure as there is no smoking gun as far as evidence goes. now here's the real kicker that all of us want to know and are afraid to face up to and why most people cling to religions for, what happens when we die? the truest answer there is to that is? I said it before, we don't know. it's a debate that will never end and is something that most likely, man wil never come to grips with.

"So once religion goes, does all war stop, Gary?"

Posted by: The Major | October 27, 2009 at 09:33 PM

What a phenomenal question.

I'll presume, Annette, you didn't realise the question was ironic. Never mind. Why bother to read between the lines, eh?

Easy Tiger... :)

It is a Henna tattoo. Duh! You guys are so gullible. I am surprised the C to C gives this kind of thing any attention.

My god!
Its the parents who, with help of a little marker pen, wants to appear in the media circus of the islamic kind.
Stupid assholes, and the assholes who believes in it are the more stupid. (a-holes, that is.)

If you turn the picture upside down you will see it spells MacDonalds.

Gary if ending religion would end war please explain to me why Communism did not get rid of wars in areas it occupied. Sadly I think war is part of human nature.... Oh well.

I have been to the Middle East, spent a year there. I will say while people over there are not as educated as Westerners they aren't stupid and I am thinking of poor farmers when I say that. They know what acid is, they know what markers are. Painfully obvious fakery would quickly be discovered. And I do think the Clerics would investigate just because they would look stupid as heck ( to other clerics) if this did become an obvious hoax.( and the Clerics do tend to be more educated) As an aside has any determined if this family is literate. Do not take it for granted in that region. Still even the illiterate people I came across again were not morons.

Hopefully more will come out about this. I am curious. After all stuff like this does happen from time to time and some of it as Irreducible Documents is not fake. If it is a fake it will not be an obvious explanation.

I agree with Gary. I'm not going to say do away with religeon, but more people have been killed in the name of god/allah or whatever you want to call it then anything else in human history. That is a fact. I was raised Catholic and I can tell you that well over half the church that I went to honestly felt that people of the Islamic faith were evil and needed to be wiped off the face of the planet, and I'm sure a good percentage of the Islamic zealots feel the same way about Christians and Jews. I have since given up on religeon in which others preach to me about what is good and bad in gods terms. Instead I have learned to just listen to myself, keep an open mind and heart, and above all things else live with the rule of due unto others as you would have them due unto you. Religeon allows for many great things in society, but unfortunately it also leads to many people looking for power or greed and using there position to obtain those things. Look at the Islamic terrorists around the world killing in Allahs name. Look at the Christian whacko's bombing abortion clinics. It occurs in all religeons and allthough getting rid of religeon would not due away with war, it would certainly tone it down a notch or two. Everyone needs to realise that the basis for religeon is faith. Faith is putting belief into something that you cannot prove. Based upon those 2 statements people need to let people believe whatever they want so long as it is not hurting people.

Ron

I think if you punch up the numbers you will see the worst killers in history were the Communists. They were a secular movement

Paul wrote: "If you turn the picture upside down you will see it spells MacDonalds."

If you look at it in a mirror upside down and reading from right to left it looks like Burger King!

To all who are so intelligent and know everything. Try it yourself if you don't believe. Wish away the phrases on every Monday and Friday and write new once again - a fully new phrase. As well in arabic. If you are well known in arabic. I don't know if some have children. But as mother or father, maybe try to write also on your child.
But yeah, everybody is a specialist in this world.

yabeliever - I don't understand the point you are making.

hi to all,
reports say the specialists sais that they can not know the reason of these appearences on the chid's skin...
besides, in russia, they do not speak nor write arabic!!!
and every monday and friday a new transcription appears... isn't this sufficent to, at least, beleive this is a real fact?
no one asked u tu turn into muslims!!!
and someone here find it as a way to express hatred regarding islam and the islamic world...
open ur eyes and minds plz...

P.S: you also need to distinguish islam from terrorism, it's not the same thing at all...

Med

Might I recommend you stop going after " infidels" who are disgusted by Islam, but by the terrorist your religion produces by the bucket loads. If you get rid of the terrorist people won't have bad feelings about Islam.

This is obviously a hoax. One can confirm this by allowing a non-biased witness to live with the family for a week. One can also take writing samples from those that have contact with the child and compare it to the alleged writing on the child.

I can't see anything that extremist Muslims are doing that is any worse than what extremist Christians have done over the centuries.

The images in question are not much different it appears to me from stigmata or a whole host of other similar phenomena. They may be faked or spontaneous. It will be difficult to prove that the phenomena is genuine much less inspired by any kind of God and is therefore of pretty low value.

The suggestion that Islam is being disrespected by criticism of this type of phenomena is preposterous.

Yes but extremist Christians are not doing it now days, or if they are doing it anywhere it is nowhere near the level of extremist Muslims. If Islam wants respect it should act respectful in my book.

And hell a lot of the stuff that was done by the extremist Christians wasn't done in the name of God. Lastly the Crusades was defensive so that doesn't bother me at all.

hi Kris :)

Well if the crusades don't bother you that's fine - they bothered me and lot of other people (not that I witnessed it first hand you understand).

I think you will find the extreme behaviour you're referring to is committed by a very small number of people under the guise of Islam and is viewed by them as defensive too.

The conflict in Ireland during the 1970-90+ had a religious/community element. The wars in Africa have a religious element.

Christianity was inflicted by force across the world at least up until the independence of India. It didn't stop at the Crusades (not that you suggested it did) and was on a scale far beyond what we see today with a small number of terrorists using Islam as a shield for violence or under the influence of a handful of political religious leaders.

For the record I am not a Muslim and cannot abide organised religion in any form.

My only regret with the Crusades is they didn't finish Islam once and for all. The world would be a lot better off without that religion.

Why does it bother you that Europe finally got sick of being attacked by Muslims, finally got sick of Christians being murdered and finally lashed out. Being bothered by that would be like being bothered by the Allies finally stomping Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan into the ground.

The Conflict in Ireland has a lot to do with property and British Imperialism. For example some Protestants supported Irish Independence and some Catholics opposed it. This was a secular conflict that had a dividing line for secular reasons that manifest itself in religious communities.

European Culture was inflicted by force but do you seriously think Spanish explorers had much motive beyond me want gold?

I agree the wars in Africa have a religious element, Muslims murdering nonbelievers. Nothing new in that one.

Please tell me about the equal number of Buddhist Terrorist, Christian Terrorist, Hindu Terrorist etc causing trouble around the globe? Check the website www.thereligionofpeace.com to see the daily terror attacks done by this religion.

I just don't think it is fair to compare Islam to other religions, which tend to be benevolent. Other religions are more good then bad, Islam is far more bad then good.

I am not a religious person either.

What an outrageous and ignorant posting. To compare the Crusades with the Allied resistance to Nazism is preposterous as 'Christian' crusaders slaughtered, plundered and raped their way across Europe and the Middle East.

As an aside Hindus and Muslims participated equally in slaughter in India and still do.

The views you express are bigoted and offensive. It is a great shame to read such outpourings on this site. I have no intention of engaging you in further discussion along these lines.

Well Paul

The views you express are bigoted and offensive toward all the people suffering under Islam and I think it is preposterous not to see the Crusades as defensive.

It is a great shame to read such outpourings as yours on such a great website. I have no intention of engaging you in further discussion along these lines.

Now that my showing you how absurd your style of argument is why don't you try engaging in factual arguments.

Let me give you an example of how to make a factual argument. This is one of many reasons why your argument against the Crusades is flawed:

The Crusaders did the following

Plundered= In World War II Allied Armies told enemy materials to support the war effort.

slaughtered= Allied Armies killed millions of enemy soldiers and civilians

Rape. Sadly true, however individuals in the Allied Armies did that too. Any evidence that was Crusader Policy.

See there right now is no difference in the conduct between the Crusaders and the Allies.

Now see all the things Muslims did before the Christians FINALLY fought back:

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus.

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636).

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governorship.

732 The Muslim Crusaders are stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance.

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids.

756 Foundation of Umayyid emirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids.

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid emirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia.

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy.

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country.

831 Muslim Crusaders capture of Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy.

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer.

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France.

869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia.

928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969).

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places.

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked .

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo.

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East.

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids.

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed.

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses.

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (also known as Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate.

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia.

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia.

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana.

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies.

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca.

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands.

1094 Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970.

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

Clearly the Crusaders were the bad guys....

Your argument is ashes Paul.

I am not saying the Muslims were not barbaric. However there is an equally long list of Christian atrocities matching those you list, often against fellow Christians of a different creed. Before Christianity rape and wholesale slaughter were part of the Hebrew tradition and so it goes on. I am not an apologist for Islam as you appear to be for Christianity. To deny the atrocities carried out by the Crusaders and adherents of Christianity over the centuries from one end of the globe to the other is pure ignorance. To suggest that Islam as a religion has a monopoly of violence or is responsible for the behaviour of all its adherents in its many variations is preposterous.

By the way, changing my argument to say that the Muslims were the good guys is dishonest and shows the blinkered approach to history that you have adopted. It does you no credit. Those who truy know their history will form their own view as to whether or not my argument is ashes. I could not let such bigoted and preposterous statements go unremarked. I am happy to leave the final words to you.

Thought you weren't responding to me :)

I have a Masters in History thank you very much.

I am not a Christian Apologist, I am agnostic.

Oh how many errors can I find in your comments.

First off produce that long list. I am willing to beat is an awful lot of secular stuff.

Yes the Old Testament does allow rape. However, Christians follow the New Testament or did you forgot that.

I did not deny atrocities ( I am still waiting for you explanation on why my views on the Crusades are incorrect by the way. I showed that they were defensive and that they did engage in tactics that other armies, including the Allies, have used in all wars.) I just know enough about history to realize just how idiotic your views are.

I never said Islam has a monopoly on violence. I just said it produces far more violence then any other religion. For the very simple reason it commands it's followers to murder people.

Those who truly know how to use logic know that you are dodging my points and not responding at all to my arguments.

I love how your arguments are so shallow that you think calling my arguments " bigoted" somehow invalidates them.

And lastly how could I get the impression that you considered the Crusaders to be the " bad guys" you only said they slaughtered, plundered and raped their way across Europe and the Middle East. Of course I reduced that argument to ashes and you have yet to give any minute reason why I am wrong.

So in the end, what is your argument? Your argument can be summed up as you don't like my views therefore I am wrong.

Go on then I know I said I wouldn't but here goes...

Firstly, you don't have to be Christian to be an apologist for them.

As regards the Old Testament (and my comment actually referred to the Hebrew tradition, ie Judaism - yet another World religion) - that depends what type of Christian one is. As you no doubt know given your 'Mastery of History' there are many denominations. Some of which regard the entire collection as inspired, and some who only use the NT as authority. This is a good example of either your partial understanding of the facts (which cannot be the case because you are so clever) or the fact that you present incomplete explanations leaving out the parts that don't support your own view.

However you personally look at it, the Hebrew Scriptures commanded followers to kill people with a astonishing list of situation that either required or encouraged it. These books are still regarded as authoritative by many who describe themselves as Christian.These scriptures have been used to support atrocities ranging from slavery and the persecution of black people in living history, all the way to outright genocide.

My view may be idiotic to one as well-educated and intelligent as yourself, but I think you will find it is quite a widely-held view (naturally that doesn't make it right but it is at least open-minded) and folks like yourself spouting inflammatory anti-Islamic rhetoric merely reinforce the propaganda of extremists and weaken the voice of the majority of peaceful Muslims.

Your arguments are bigoted not because they are wrong, but because they are incomplete and only present the version of events that suit your purpose. Just like your definition of Christianity.

Of course I don't like your view - you are a bigot, on this matter anyway. This doesn't make everything you say wrong. But you present a partial version of events and this is dishonest.

Definitely and absolutely probably my final word.

Paul

I am done arguing. Your neck. Don't say I didn't warn you. You can talk on and about how peaceful Islam is while they are sawing off you head.

And fine Paul I would rather be a bigot then a fool. I am sure if we sent you back in time to say the 1930s you could lecture people on their bigotry toward the Nazis. But like I say it is your head, literally.

this is exactly what I was talking about, in my earlier posts, (read them) this has gotten to be pathetic. at this rate, the world will never know peace with you lot around. and all of this bickering has got to do with what? do you all know what this was all supposed to be about? no, you made it into a venue in which to spit your venomous hate at each other. you people cling to the past like it happened to you personally, here's a hint, GROW THE F UP AND MOVE FORWARD.....or else this planet will be consumed by fire while everyone blames everyone else.

Thanks for your constructive input Gary.

this is not a comment. I have a muslim sister who started bleeding from her eyes, nose, ears and other parts of her body after that two cross with a shape of a soard appare on her hands.

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